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	<title>Comments on: Wine in Communion Redux</title>
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	<description>\Ad`ver*sa"ri*a\, n. pl. [L. adversaria (sc. scripta), neut. pl. of adversarius.]</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 06:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The Baptist Way: The Lord’s Supper (1) : China Aid</title>
		<link>http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679&cpage=1#comment-228160</link>
		<dc:creator>The Baptist Way: The Lord’s Supper (1) : China Aid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 17:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] UPDATE: A related issue to the meaning of the Lord’s Supper is the methodology for receiving it. Alastair takes on the wine in communion issue, along with a number of other questions. UPDATE II: In this BHT post, I demonstrate the the language of Baptist confessions avoided the word “symbol” until the BFM. Note the change from the New Hampshire Confession. UPDATE III: Here is a recent IM post on weekly communion. I’ll reference it here, and again in my next post on “The Baptist Way: Recovering the Lord’s Supper.” (soli deo is now almost officially ended, so I am grieving the loss of any kind of communion.) UPDATE IV: My friend Trevin Wax, one of those young SBCers leaning more towards a reformed view of the LS, interacts with this post at his blog. This post begins a new IM series on “The Baptist Way.” These posts will feature resources and interviews focusing on issues in the Baptist tradition that I feel are being neglected in theological discussion today. This first post will introduce the Baptist view of the Lord’s Supper. Today, many younger Baptists are identifying with a more reformed theology, and many are moving toward other views of the Lord’s Supper. It will be important to understand the Baptist views, and its strengths and weaknesses, as this kind of interaction/evolution occurs among Baptist evangelicals. For a short historical look at the various Western views of the Lord’s Supper and their historical origins, visit this page at Luther Seminary. Today’s Baptists have a position deeply influenced by Zwingli, but not completely rejecting the language of Calvin. If you know nothing about the Baptist practice, visit the Wikipedia entry on Baptist ordinances. (It’s not weaponry.) There are many excellent resources on the Baptist view of the Lord’s Supper. Let me suggest several to reacquaint readers with what Baptists believe. (Consult Baptist creeds, confessions and catechisms for a start.)Dr. Tom Nettles, professor of Church History at Southern Seminary, has an essay on “Baptists and the Ordinances” with a good summary of the classical Baptist view of the Lord’s Supper. Note especially Nettle’s comments on Zwingli’s so-called “bare symbolism.” Baptists practice the Lord’s Supper in conformity with the Zwinglian view of its essence. John Gill states very simply that it is “to Shew forth the death of Christ till he come again; to commemorate his sufferings and sacrifice, to represent his body broken, and his blood shed for the sins of his people.” Any who desires to take it should examine himself to discern if he “has true faith in Christ, and is capable of discerning the Lord’s body.” [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] UPDATE: A related issue to the meaning of the Lord’s Supper is the methodology for receiving it. Alastair takes on the wine in communion issue, along with a number of other questions. UPDATE II: In this BHT post, I demonstrate the the language of Baptist confessions avoided the word “symbol” until the BFM. Note the change from the New Hampshire Confession. UPDATE III: Here is a recent IM post on weekly communion. I’ll reference it here, and again in my next post on “The Baptist Way: Recovering the Lord’s Supper.” (soli deo is now almost officially ended, so I am grieving the loss of any kind of communion.) UPDATE IV: My friend Trevin Wax, one of those young SBCers leaning more towards a reformed view of the LS, interacts with this post at his blog. This post begins a new IM series on “The Baptist Way.” These posts will feature resources and interviews focusing on issues in the Baptist tradition that I feel are being neglected in theological discussion today. This first post will introduce the Baptist view of the Lord’s Supper. Today, many younger Baptists are identifying with a more reformed theology, and many are moving toward other views of the Lord’s Supper. It will be important to understand the Baptist views, and its strengths and weaknesses, as this kind of interaction/evolution occurs among Baptist evangelicals. For a short historical look at the various Western views of the Lord’s Supper and their historical origins, visit this page at Luther Seminary. Today’s Baptists have a position deeply influenced by Zwingli, but not completely rejecting the language of Calvin. If you know nothing about the Baptist practice, visit the Wikipedia entry on Baptist ordinances. (It’s not weaponry.) There are many excellent resources on the Baptist view of the Lord’s Supper. Let me suggest several to reacquaint readers with what Baptists believe. (Consult Baptist creeds, confessions and catechisms for a start.)Dr. Tom Nettles, professor of Church History at Southern Seminary, has an essay on “Baptists and the Ordinances” with a good summary of the classical Baptist view of the Lord’s Supper. Note especially Nettle’s comments on Zwingli’s so-called “bare symbolism.” Baptists practice the Lord’s Supper in conformity with the Zwinglian view of its essence. John Gill states very simply that it is “to Shew forth the death of Christ till he come again; to commemorate his sufferings and sacrifice, to represent his body broken, and his blood shed for the sins of his people.” Any who desires to take it should examine himself to discern if he “has true faith in Christ, and is capable of discerning the Lord’s body.” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Confessions of a Shiftless Mind &#187; On Communion - Is It Wine or Is It Memorex?</title>
		<link>http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679&cpage=1#comment-183175</link>
		<dc:creator>Confessions of a Shiftless Mind &#187; On Communion - Is It Wine or Is It Memorex?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 00:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Peter linked to an interesting discussion on the nature of the contents of the cup of the Lord&#8217;s Supper, or Communion. I think it is a good question to ask - is it important that the bread be bread and the wine be wine? What is the nature of this ritual? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Peter linked to an interesting discussion on the nature of the contents of the cup of the Lord&#8217;s Supper, or Communion. I think it is a good question to ask - is it important that the bread be bread and the wine be wine? What is the nature of this ritual? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Confessing Evangelical &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Flannel-graph of the vine?</title>
		<link>http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679&cpage=1#comment-130444</link>
		<dc:creator>Confessing Evangelical &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Flannel-graph of the vine?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] In a subsequent post, Alastair then expands on the topic of wine in communion. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In a subsequent post, Alastair then expands on the topic of wine in communion. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Witmer</title>
		<link>http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679&cpage=1#comment-130271</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Witmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 11:38:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;strike&gt;Couldn't I just eat the unbaked sourdough? There's alcohol in that, you know.&lt;/strike&gt;
Seriously, thanks for the great post. I admire how you are able to maintain an irenic demeanor on controversial subjects even while you drive home your points forcefully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strike>Couldn&#8217;t I just eat the unbaked sourdough? There&#8217;s alcohol in that, you know.</strike><br />
Seriously, thanks for the great post. I admire how you are able to maintain an irenic demeanor on controversial subjects even while you drive home your points forcefully.</p>
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		<title>By: Confessions of a Shiftless Mind &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On Communion - Is It Wine or Is It Memorex - Part 2</title>
		<link>http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679&cpage=1#comment-129590</link>
		<dc:creator>Confessions of a Shiftless Mind &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On Communion - Is It Wine or Is It Memorex - Part 2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 21:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679#comment-129590</guid>
		<description>[...] A continuation of my thoughts on communion wine. Spurred by Peter, who was spurred by Alistair. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A continuation of my thoughts on communion wine. Spurred by Peter, who was spurred by Alistair. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Confessions of a Shiftless Mind &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On Communion - Is It Wine or Is It Memorex?</title>
		<link>http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679&cpage=1#comment-129589</link>
		<dc:creator>Confessions of a Shiftless Mind &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On Communion - Is It Wine or Is It Memorex?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 21:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679#comment-129589</guid>
		<description>[...] Peter linked to an interesting discussion on the nature of the contents of the cup of the Lord&#8217;s Supper, or Communion. I think it is a good question to ask - is it important that the bread be bread and the wine be wine? What is the nature of this ritual? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Peter linked to an interesting discussion on the nature of the contents of the cup of the Lord&#8217;s Supper, or Communion. I think it is a good question to ask - is it important that the bread be bread and the wine be wine? What is the nature of this ritual? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679&cpage=1#comment-128878</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2007 19:57:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679#comment-128878</guid>
		<description>Thank you for taking the time to read through the argument, Al. I think you hit the nail on the head with the difficulty that comes with engaging people coming from such a perspective: they're operating on a rather different hermeneutic and it's quite a struggle to communicate on such lines. I recently prepared a paper that attempted to show the numerous failures that accompany such a tight reading of the Institution of the Lord's Supper, that it demands greater attention to symbolism and redemptive-historical readings in order to be read at all. Hopefully, the point will be understood for the sake of at least speaking on the same playing field.

The fact is that very few people in the real world are accustomed to reading Scripture with more than a wooden literal reading, and so while what you originally wrote is immanently valuable, it's still somewhat unintelligible to those not used to reading the text the way you do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for taking the time to read through the argument, Al. I think you hit the nail on the head with the difficulty that comes with engaging people coming from such a perspective: they&#8217;re operating on a rather different hermeneutic and it&#8217;s quite a struggle to communicate on such lines. I recently prepared a paper that attempted to show the numerous failures that accompany such a tight reading of the Institution of the Lord&#8217;s Supper, that it demands greater attention to symbolism and redemptive-historical readings in order to be read at all. Hopefully, the point will be understood for the sake of at least speaking on the same playing field.</p>
<p>The fact is that very few people in the real world are accustomed to reading Scripture with more than a wooden literal reading, and so while what you originally wrote is immanently valuable, it&#8217;s still somewhat unintelligible to those not used to reading the text the way you do.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679&cpage=1#comment-128844</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2007 17:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679#comment-128844</guid>
		<description>Love the song!  . . . and the post.  Glad to see you back from your hiatus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love the song!  . . . and the post.  Glad to see you back from your hiatus.</p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679&cpage=1#comment-128793</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2007 15:41:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679#comment-128793</guid>
		<description>Scott,

To my knowledge, I never said that wine was part of the original institution of the Passover. If I did, I was wrong. As he addresses this point at considerable length in his response, I think that this needs to be made clear. Nevertheless, before moving on from this point, it is worth making clear that wine was in fact part of later Passover liturgies.

The use of the language of ‘fruit of the vine’ and ‘cup’ is not artful ambiguity. It is not meant to be vague. Unlike those who read such expressions woodenly, everyone who heard Jesus would know that ‘fruit of the vine’ and ‘cup’ were simply ways of speaking about wine. These were established ways of speaking about the wine in the Passover celebration (this can be demonstrated from a study of early Jewish sources). They also serve to highlight certain symbolic connections in a way that the word ‘wine’ itself would not do.

He never really engages with the broader biblical symbolism that the Supper draws upon and the significance of alcohol in this context. I contend that his argument ultimately rests upon a wooden and minimalistic reading of the biblical text, missing the forest for the trees. If one chooses to read the Scriptures in such a manner there is no ‘proof’ that can really convince you otherwise. Such an inattentive reading is quite hard to argue against as there is no scientific and purely logical demonstration of my case to be given. Our differences are at the level of hermeneutics, not at the level of the application of these hermeneutics to the text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott,</p>
<p>To my knowledge, I never said that wine was part of the original institution of the Passover. If I did, I was wrong. As he addresses this point at considerable length in his response, I think that this needs to be made clear. Nevertheless, before moving on from this point, it is worth making clear that wine was in fact part of later Passover liturgies.</p>
<p>The use of the language of ‘fruit of the vine’ and ‘cup’ is not artful ambiguity. It is not meant to be vague. Unlike those who read such expressions woodenly, everyone who heard Jesus would know that ‘fruit of the vine’ and ‘cup’ were simply ways of speaking about wine. These were established ways of speaking about the wine in the Passover celebration (this can be demonstrated from a study of early Jewish sources). They also serve to highlight certain symbolic connections in a way that the word ‘wine’ itself would not do.</p>
<p>He never really engages with the broader biblical symbolism that the Supper draws upon and the significance of alcohol in this context. I contend that his argument ultimately rests upon a wooden and minimalistic reading of the biblical text, missing the forest for the trees. If one chooses to read the Scriptures in such a manner there is no ‘proof’ that can really convince you otherwise. Such an inattentive reading is quite hard to argue against as there is no scientific and purely logical demonstration of my case to be given. Our differences are at the level of hermeneutics, not at the level of the application of these hermeneutics to the text.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679&cpage=1#comment-128772</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2007 14:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?p=679#comment-128772</guid>
		<description>Yes. I agree the argument is a pretty weak one. But I found the original document that I was thinking of and I believe I might have restated the argument rather poorly. Of course, I still find it to be lacking having reviewed it, but if you are interested in reading the full critique you can read it here: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dcwh6m9f_5rkpbpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. I agree the argument is a pretty weak one. But I found the original document that I was thinking of and I believe I might have restated the argument rather poorly. Of course, I still find it to be lacking having reviewed it, but if you are interested in reading the full critique you can read it here: <a href="http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dcwh6m9f_5rkpbpg" rel="nofollow">http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dcwh6m9f_5rkpbpg</a></p>
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